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Bin Laden Is Bye Bye

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by TeHpUmKinKiNg, May 2, 2011.

  1. TeHpUmKinKiNg

    TeHpUmKinKiNg OMG Member

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    Dead. Deceased. No More.





    Years of tracking the world's most-wanted terrorist culminated Sunday afternoon, when a CIA-led Navy SEALs squadron of just a few dozen men stormed Usama bin Laden's compound and killed him.






    President Obama announced the results of the top-secret operation late Sunday night, calling it the most significant blow to Al Qaeda to date. Within hours, the architect of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks that killed more than 3,000 people was buried at sea.






    Though the president offered only sparse information on the mission and the intelligence that led to it, details have since emerged about the heroic actions of the small, elite team dispatched to Pakistan by an order from the president last week.






    According to officials, a 40-man Navy SEALs squadron raided bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, at 3:30 p.m. ET on Sunday. As officials described it, the raid was swift -- the team was on the compound for less than 40 minutes and did not run into any local authorities during the firefight.






    At the start of the operation, four U.S.-owned and operated helicopters launched from a base in Afghanistan and dropped about 24 men onto the grounds of the compound. One helicopter suffered a "hard landing" after experiencing a "flight control issue" and had to be destroyed on the site.






    At first, bin Laden was asked to surrender. But a military official said he resisted. In the end, he was killed in the ensuing firefight with a bullet to the head.






    No Americans were hurt or killed during the raid. Besides bin Laden, three other men were killed, one of whom is believed to be bin Laden's 24-year-old son. One woman used as a human shield was also killed, and two other women were injured.






    The operation itself stemmed from a tip that came to Obama's desk last August. Specifically, U.S. officials were tracking an Al Qaeda courier in Pakistan, based on information obtained from multiple detainees, and determined the location of the compound in Pakistan where the courier and his brother operated. It was built on a large plot of land, and was heavily secured, with 12-to-18-foot walls topped with barbed wire, officials said. Intelligence analysts determined the compound "was custom-built to hide someone of significance," a senior administration official said.






    After months of analyzing the information, U.S. officials began holding high-level meetings about how to proceed earlier this year.



    On April 29, Obama gave the order to conduct the operation. The actual mission was supposed to happen Saturday night, but it was delayed due to weather.






    The highly trained special forces unit had been practicing the raid a week in advance. In announcing the successful completion, Obama said Sunday night that bin Laden's death "is a testament to the greatness of our country."






    "For over two decades, bin Laden has been Al Qaeda's leader and symbol," Obama said. "The death of bin Laden marks the most significant achievement to date in our nation's effort to defeat Al Qaeda."



    In a message to employees, CIA Director Leon Panetta said Monday that "we have rid the world of the most infamous terrorist of our time."






    "Nothing will ever compensate for the pain and suffering inflicted by this mass murderer and his henchmen. But just as evil never rests, neither does good. May the fact that Usama Bin Ladin no longer inhabits the earth be a source of comfort for the thousands of families, here in America and around the globe, who mourn the victims of Al Qaeda's barbarity," he wrote.






    He added that while bin Laden is dead, "Al Qaeda is not."



    In the wake of bin Laden's death, authorities around the world are being urged to take security precautions. One source said officials are concerned bin Laden's death could incite violence or terrorist acts against U.S. personnel overseas.






    The State Department issued a travel alert for U.S. citizens abroad overnight, citing "the enhanced potential for anti-American violence given recent counterterrorism activity in Pakistan." Obama said Americans must continue to be "vigilant." But he said the death of the architect of the deadliest terror attack on U.S. soil should be welcomed around the world. "Bin Laden was not a Muslim leader. He was a mass murderer of Muslims," Obama said. "So his demise should be welcomed by all who believe in peace and human dignity."
     
  2. LilMistress T

    LilMistress T OMG Member

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    I was highly disappointed that we did not see a body... Now I just think it's a little weird that all this comes about just as the president's approval ratings are at an all time low.... I hope he really is dead, for what it's worth. But I don't think this war would end on just that note, there's too many eager followers ready to take up his mantle. It will be a long road ahead.
     
  3. Digz

    Digz OMG Member

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    The only problem about not seeing the body is that this brings up the conspiracy theorists again. I hope he is dead, I do believe it (or maybe that's just my desire to), we all know that there will be a backlash, or have we cut the stinger off? I highly doubt it.
     
  4. Nemmerle

    Nemmerle OMG Member

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    -shrug- A relatively worthless individual has been killed. He spent the last few years in a compound. I doubt there'll be much backlash. I don't think you've cut the stinger off - I just don't think many people are out to get you to begin with.
     
  5. Glasgow Grin

    Glasgow Grin I Have A Spork!

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    I bet he dropped some bad ass loot though.
     
  6. twinky dink

    twinky dink OMG Member

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    only if you have good MF on..
     
  7. Bears_Krutz

    Bears_Krutz Citizen of the Forum

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    I really don't think that our government is one to brag about the death of Osama. Yes, I do think that it would be beneficial to put atleast a confirmation picture out there, however I don't think it is within the American government to really do that. Who knows though, maybe one will show up eventually (wiki leaks, right).


    Yeah, Osama in most of the religious fanatics' eyes died as a martyr. I don't think that just killing one man will solve the problem. It is though a huge morale boost for the United States. It also puts out a strong message to terorists, no matter what happens and how long you might hide we will come and get you. We don't screw around.
     
  8. Jayden

    Jayden I R Posting Machine

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    ^^ this. I couldn't have said it better, man.
     
  9. Nemmerle

    Nemmerle OMG Member

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    You could have had Bin Laden back in 2001 if you didn't screw around. Accepted the Taliban's offer to surrender him in return for a truce. Instead you got this shit:


    "When I said no negotiations I meant no negotiations [...] We know he's guilty. Turn him over. There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt."


    - George Bush Jnr


    Tens of thousands of people died over that clusterfuck. So that Bush could prance around and claim, "I'm a war president."


    What sort of message have you sent terrorists? The same message you've sent them for the past decade: America will sacrifice a disproportionate amount of resources to catch you. If you care about what you're fighting for more than you care about your life, (and lots of people do,) then America is a really easy target.
     
  10. Bears_Krutz

    Bears_Krutz Citizen of the Forum

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    You seem to have a very lopsided opinion.


    1. Now, I don't know what you guys do up in England, but when a countries' civilian population is targed and that act of terrorism is considered one of the largest catastrophies in your history, 100% that country is going to retaliate. Guess who the terrorists? Guess who the leader was?


    "When I said no negotiations I meant no negotiations [...] We know he's guilty. Turn him over. There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt."





    - George Bush Jnr



    Yeah, he nailed with this quote. We came here for Bin Laden, and we weren't leaving until we got it. That was our conditions of surrender, guess what..... The Taliban said no.. And we all know what that means... "You mess with the bull you get the horns". Well, most of us know what that means... They had a choice and they decided to play hard ball with the United States Military.


    Come on, before you start spewing random facts out alteast try to make them sound reasonable. Any president who was in term during that aact of terrorism would have done the same thing. Oh yeah, don't forget we can't declare war unless a go ahead from Congress. Yeah, and who gave him the go ahead... Hmm..... Interesting isnt it?


    Yeah, you are right, we did send a message to Terrorists and the world alike. "The Buck Stops Here" As Truman liked to say. We won't put up with the crap. Yeah, we are an easy target, because we are the world Super Power (unless China starts kicking butt soon).


    But hey, it is ok. You in England just can't grasp the idea of not only your fellow countrymen (all innocent hard working citizens, some with their children in the lower level of the towers) people who were fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, aunts, uncles, friends, the list could go on. Those people were ripped away in a sudden act of violence that we haven't seen for awhile. Hell yeah, we were all crying for war.


    Thank you too all of our Veterans


    GOD BLESS THE USA
     
  11. Nemmerle

    Nemmerle OMG Member

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    The world super power. Yeah, right. Come on then, let's have a war - your country and mine. Which do you think is going to lose? Well we've got 225 nuclear warheads and you've got 5,114 - so if you're prepared to sacrifice your 225 largest cities I guess you will. Are you? No, you're not. No war in history would have killed as many of your people as that conflict would and the only thing you'd gain for it would be a burned out husk of a country. And that's not to mention the electronics that would be fried - the biological and chemical weapons, the sudden transport and communication problems. Those who got fried by the nukes would be the lucky ones.


    The simple truth is that military might is only relevant in the current world between nations that have not yet gained nuclear weapons. This is largely why Europe could be considered demilitarised. The cost is simply too high for anyone who matters to fight anyone else who matters. All this dick measuring about how China isn't a super power because they're not out there kicking butt is irrelevant. Any first world country with a nuclear stockpile could take any third world country - that they elect not to says more about their subtlety than their power in the world. America has a cultural love for the image of military might; and equates it with influence on world affairs. But the only real super powers left are economic super powers, and you don't top the chart.


    Indeed pouring ridiculous amounts of money into an organisation that has long ceased to have much of a purpose directly cripples your influence on world affairs. What got Bin Laden in the end? Intelligence and about twenty men. It sure as hell wasn't the billions invested in the war. That money would have been far better invested elsewhere - as would the lives.


    And that's really what this comes down to - investments, costs; people, money. The question isn't about whether America should have gone after Bin Laden. The question is whether it makes sense for them to pay the price they did or whether they could have paid less.


    The Taliban offered to negotiate for him. That's what history records – it's what I remember and it's what five seconds with a book or even google will inform you of. Their price? Proof he did it and an end to the bombing. Not an unreasonable price tag when compared to billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives. They offered to surrender him to a third party for trial – but again you didn't want it.


    You had many choices short of war, and would have retained the option to wage war even if those other choices didn't pan out. The decision to use an army to hunt Bin Laden, and to keep doing so once you'd been given the option to extricate yourself from the mistake, is not justified by the number of dead on 9/11. The objective would have been achieved either way. So don't come to me hiding your lust for killing behind the deaths of women and children; I'm not impressed by your inability to look at things dispassionately.
     
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  12. Bears_Krutz

    Bears_Krutz Citizen of the Forum

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    How do you define an Economic Super Power? Regarding your comment about how the US is not a super power or even an economic super power. Let's review the facts about how the US is NOT one of the economic super powers. Let's review GDP incase you do not know what this is, GDP is the market value of all final goods and services from a nation in a given year. 3 sources for GDP are the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and the CIA World Fact Book. The United States is ranked number one with the highest GDP. Now, you may try and argue that the European Union has a higher GDP than the United States, now let me remind you that the European Union is composed of 27 member countries with a population of over 500 million inhabitants.


    Another method of determining the economic strength of a country is too review the Purchasing Power Parity or PPP GDP. This method attempts to take into account that 1$ can buy more in some countries than it does in others. It is a better way to compare the size of each market. Again the United States ranks number one. Our friends in the United Kingdom rank 8th. However we are at 14.6 trillion and they are at 2.1 (roughly 7x the size of the United Kingdom).


    I agree with you that no one wins in an all out nuclear armageddon. However there are plenty of convetionaly based conflicts in the world over the last few decades. And when a conflict arises who does the world turn too? The United States of America!


    Even your country required US assistance in retaking the Falkland Island.


    Look, I am just trying to refute your posistion that the United States is not a super power. I am not trying to bash the UK, most Americans I included love the people and the government of the UK.


    "America has a cultural love for the image of military might; and equates it with influence on world affairs."


    As far as the US and it's love affair for the image of military might. We believed in more isolationism until we were dragged into WW1 and WW2. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was the USA who was able to bail Europe out in both of the wars. Teddy Roosevelt said at best "Speak sofly but carry a bit stick". Look at how diplomacy works now, pick a country. Iraq, Iran, North Korea; they negotiate to stall, so they can go and continue to carry on with what the world does not want them to do. If there is no big stick they will carry on doing what they so please, since there is that big stick the countries do what they are told.


    Hey Look, the United States has grown to this status by spreading the gospel of Capitalism, Human Rights, and Freedom. With all of her faults we still try to do good, and I wouldn't want to love anywhere else.


    Everyone loves their country, the difference is that I am not bashing your country, you are bashing mine. Because our country has proven to be so dominate it makes an easy target for others to hate.


    What would happen if the US is not as strong as it is or has been? What would the European Union do when China and Soviet Union go over their borders. Who is going to check their progress. WHo stopped the expansion of the Soviet Empire, the United States, what did the UN do? Who will stop the Chineese in the future, and please don't tell me that the Chineese are modernizing their military for deffensive strength. All their new military development has been for offensive purposes. Why? Natural Resources they are preparing for the day when they can not obtain those resources. You watch. Who will stop them? When that day happens I don't want to see the EU asking for the US to bail them out. Who are they going to come crying too? When was the last time the Europeans did anything without American support? The US has come in the Balkans and Kosovo (and that is practically in your back yard).


    So when China comes knocking on your back door, don't look for the US to lend a helping hand!


    By the way a simple Google search would show this as well. The US is not the only country involved in the Global War on Terrorism. 37 other countries are involved including your own. The war on Terrorism was not soley to kill Bin Laden, but to eradicate the threat of terrorist organizations around the world. I suggest you spend some time googling the war on terrorism because it is much more than just killing UBL. (Even Wiki can help you on that).


    As far as your last statement about our lust for killing. You don't know Americans very well. Americans are the most giving and compassionate people in the world. WHen you cross that line and murder thousands of innocent people, not just once and but multiple times and hide behind your children women and mousques. We will defend ourselves and eradicate you. Our government gives more aid then any other government and our citizens give more aid to other countries then anyone else.


    In terms of surrender, they offered to go to some 3rd party country. There was no reason too. As Bush earlier said, we know they are guilty, they know they are guilty. Enough said, there was no deal to give him to us. I can just picture a fair trial in Sedan.


    I can only speak for myself for this matter. But I do no wish to further argue a case that either side will budge on. I will go back to the discussions about SWTOR, and I encourage you to do the same.


    It was an enjoyable debate.
     
  13. Nemmerle

    Nemmerle OMG Member

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    GDP is only a good measure inside the market of the country that it was measured in since the value of goods varies. It's more a measure of activity than anything else. That's what PPP was meant to address but it's dramatically off, especially when you're dealing with a service economy that has high barriers to trade across borders and a very subjective value in the first place. Depending on how you calculate it India has, I believe, between the fifteenth and the fourth largest economy in the world according to PPP.


    A country's import/export balance seems, to me, to be the best measure of their ability to project economic influence; and, as you'd expect, it easily converts into harder forms of dominance.


    Assuming, of course, you buy into the idea that there are any super powers left. When there are conflicts countries tend to turn to whomever they think will be on their side – even those that consider themselves super powers. In the Falklands conflict we got help from America in the form of fuel and missiles. We got help from the French in the form of the codes to the Argentinian anti-ship missiles, details about their homing radars and assorted intelligence assistance – they also allowed us to train against foreign aircraft. We got help from Chile in the form of their radar and assorted intelligence. Heck even New Zealand sent a warship to allow us to pull one off the Indian ocean. Similarly America wanted our help for the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq but I'm fairly sure they didn't need it. Though come to think of it when was the last time America did something by itself? It doesn't make sense for anyone to go it alone if they can pull their allies into it.


    What will happen if Russia or China makes a bee-line for the borders? The same thing that would have happened last time: Nukes. It'll just be clearer which side would use them first this time. If the WTO seriously looked like it was going to win that war we'd have nuked them, and if NATO looked like it was going to win the WTO would have nuked us. And both sides knew it so it never happened. Heck, even back then the people on both sides were primarily worried that the people on the other side were insane.

    “As far as your last statement about our lust for killing. You don't know Americans very well. Americans are the most giving and compassionate people in the world.”

    When you adjust for Gross National Income, America comes, I believe, 19th or 20th in terms of government assistance. On a per person basis you're not even in the top ten. The most giving people in the world seem to be in Luxembourg, followed by Norway and Sweden, then Ireland and Denmark, The Netherlands, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Finland, Switzerland....

    “In terms of surrender, they offered to go to some 3rd party country. There was no reason too. As Bush earlier said, we know they are guilty, they know they are guilty. Enough said, there was no deal to give him to us. I can just picture a fair trial in Sedan.”

    I think it unlikely they were lying considering that the Taliban weren't a terrorist organisation and didn't exactly have the world's most wonderful intelligence resources. It's not implausible that they'd doubt America's word on the issue.


    But even assuming you're right. Why is that an argument not to try it? It would have cost you nothing to find out. And if he went for a - fair - trial in some extremist country you could have dropped a bomb on his head or had someone shoot him on his way to the trial. People get conveniently killed all the time. Heck those places are fairly corrupt, you could probably pay someone to do it for you.


    You're right that the war on terror is about larger issues than one man – the war in Afghanistan, however, was not. Not when the stated end goal was the surrender of Bin Laden. There are practical counter intelligence measures that should be being taken – and then there's the rest of it; this strange idea that you can make war on a method as old as man. The insanity of which my country is, sadly, a part of.


    What was it Sherman said? "War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it." Something like that anyway. It strikes very close to the core of the issue. Civilians have always been targeted in some form or another, the weak have always attempted to strike the strong where they are weakest. These are just facts of life; you cannot turn back the clock. People will reinvent them whenever they want to fight a stronger opponent.


    As for bashing: I believe the point when you cannot criticise a thing is a point when it has become irrecoverable. If I were saying America is pure evil - that wouldn't be a useful criticism. If on the other hand I'm saying you should explore options for negotiation and moderation of force in fight terrorism, and debating whether you are a super power and whether that makes you a target or not.... Well there are issues there that actually matter.


    People are involved in politics - largely whether they like it or not - so it's important to have these sorts of dialogues; where people shouldn't be restrained by ideas like patriotism or who's bashing whose country. If people were criticising England I'd join in like as not; have in the past.


    Still, if you've no wish to take this further that's fine with me. Thank you for your time.
     
  14. Jayden

    Jayden I R Posting Machine

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    I consider myself a patriot. I'm proud to be an American. Still, that pride does jot inhibit me from seeing the truth: our foreign policy is crap. Nemmerle is correct: we can afford to at least explore other options before we commit to the use of our armed forces. That exploration doesn't mean we should collectively become pushes, though.


    I personally believe in a head for an eye. If Saudi terrorists bombed our building, we bomb an entire city. They kill 3,000 people in an attack? We kill 300,000. Make the cost of Fucking with us so damn high that soon, no one would dare try.
     
  15. twinky dink

    twinky dink OMG Member

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    Heh fighting over whos dick is bigger....both you two need to remember where you get the stuff for the bombs from....and who let you test those bombs on land ;)
     
  16. Jayden

    Jayden I R Posting Machine

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    If you are referring to nuclear weapons, we get the radioactive material from ore in our own mountains. Testing was done on our own land, and territories.
     
  17. twinky dink

    twinky dink OMG Member

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    might want to look again...Australia and Canada export from their mines, Australia has the largest stockpiles in the world, and Australia let the British and US govements test fire most all their A bombs in the 50's and 60's. Only one little tiny country said no to all that, New Zealand...Which to this day no American warship is to enter NZ waters. and you damn well better believe the US doesnt go there.
     
  18. OP
    TeHpUmKinKiNg

    TeHpUmKinKiNg OMG Member

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    Oh, we're GOING there. In time, Sir. In time.
     
  19. twinky dink

    twinky dink OMG Member

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    oh no you didn't!!!
     
  20. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye OMG Member

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    I've been off the grid since 26 April and found out about bin laden this morning. So, he's dead. He's been a dead man since 9/11, I thought everyone knew that.


    I also thought everyone in the game knew what covert ops meant too. At least the covert portion. They should have killed bin laden and disappeared into the night. That is how it used to be done.


    Nicely executed op. Poorly handled post op by civilian authority.


    If the general public is made aware of all the dirty work their gov't does, they will have horrible nightmares, or worse...they will go on the internet and bitch.:wink(1):


    Saddam and his sons are dead and the leader of al qadea is dead. When other al qadea leaders are identified, they can be targeted and dispatched in a precise manner. Time to bring all the troops home and let Iraq and Afghanistan settle their own business.


    If they want to kill each other, that is up to them.
     
  21. OP
    TeHpUmKinKiNg

    TeHpUmKinKiNg OMG Member

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    Sounds reasonable to me lol.


    Now, there is the bickering about whether or not the "enhanced interrogations" played a role into providing intel leading to this.
     
  22. Nemmerle

    Nemmerle OMG Member

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    Why the hell would you admit to torturing people? :wacko:
     
  23. twinky dink

    twinky dink OMG Member

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    No one has to admit to that, everyone with half a brain knows that if any army has a person of interest, they will use whatever means to get the info out of them.
     
  24. Nemmerle

    Nemmerle OMG Member

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    I think you give the mob far too much credit. Most people's last few neurons died from loneliness a long time ago. They don't think about these sorts of issues for themselves. Sure if you ask the question: Would some members of the military torture people to get information? They'll answer, yes. But the question is not something that it normally occurs to them to ask. And as long as you don't make them ask the question, they will continue in happy oblivion where that 'yes' answer never becomes applicable to any particular instance.
     
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