The ridiculous(?) post deleting and thread closing on XenForo continues

[Floris]

I haven't talked about this before, because I want to have a positive attitude towards running my site on XenForo and I believe the product is great, and that the guys making it are amazing. But that doesn't mean we do not clash on a few things. And I like to believe that after many years of building communities that forcefully deleting content you disagree with or aren't open to that you're hurting yourself in the long run. I've expressed myself on their site a few times with a bad undertone or with a normal tone but with critique, and those posts have been deleted with the argument that it is their site and they're free to do so for whatever argument. Yep, that's true. Whether I like it or not.

More comments have been made by people about their posts being deleted, and more so recently with the lawsuit against them. And it makes me frown a bit.

Instead of leaving the original long thread about the lawsuit open and merge additional content in there, so people can speculate, learn from their mistakes, and grow a grounded opinion based on those facts, or have a spot to share info they're interested in discussing about the case, it got closed. And recently again people mentioning their posts got deleted, which either had facts or speculation - we don't know. And it's part of the problem. I understand that the company doesn't want to publicly express themselves - but not doing so adds doubt and fear, creates rumors and speculation.

There was a thread created on their site the other day about that (unfortunately) failed project of the defend xenforo team and I spotted another blog article where they tell the visitors to not discuss the case on xenforo.com, and so I asked them in that thread on xenforo as to why. I mean, their moderator reach isn't beyond the xenforo.com forums after all. The argument appeared to be that the admins requested this. Which struck me as odd. I guess the idea is to not even mention the case at all.

Reality check: The case is very much so real. And it is going to affect business and its customers. Why? It's a three men crew against an international corporation that can financially dry them out and waste their time in court. And two of those are the developers of the product. The product I pay for, use on my site, and decided to use for the long term future of my site.

I think I kinda like to know if someone finds out new info that helps me shape my opinion about the case claims, against either company or how that case might affect the future of the company or the developers involved. For the same reason I wanted to know how the involvement of Internet Brands Inc into Jelsoft might affect the vBulletin product.

The thread about defend xenforo got closed, and peggy afterwards posted that despite it being closed she still had to speak her mind:

"It has been asked that the lawsuit not be discussed here simply and ONLY because this is a company site, and that's what the forum is for - company business - the business of selling and supporting XenForo and its customers, both present and future."

To which I reported the post, because as a customer, despite it being closed, I kinda felt like speaking my mind to.

"As a customer and dedicated fanboy-ism, I spend time/resource promotion, money on advertising, and investing into licenses and what not - you should realize that because it is a company we have the right to know, we will run our sites on this product and invest time/money into the future of our sites. Hiding info - not giving a place to discuss it - this will most likely come back to bite you. The fact you're getting sued is real, and it can affect customers, you can't escape from this and that's a reality. Using arguments as this is a company site - it is meant for company things only. Guess what, the lawsuit is part of that. Even more so than exposing your customers to barefoot videos.

And yes, this report is not just from me, it's from me + everybody on twitter, irc, email, the xenfans site and skype - all their msgs i woke up to earlier.

I care about the guys that make this product, and I care about the product. But guess what: I REALLY care about my web site."

The tone from the team (company guys and the moderators) in regards to criticism leading to posts being deleted, opinions being pushed under the rug and open discussions being closed from further speculation slowly puts a weird but recognizable taste in my mouth, and makes me want to believe that there's more to it, despite probably knowing better, and feeds me doubt and fear that I have to give a place.

~fanboy can haz opinion~

 

[anthonyparsons]

The tone from the team (company guys and the moderators) in regards to criticism leading to posts being deleted, opinions being pushed under the rug and open discussions being closed from further speculation slowly puts a weird but recognizable taste in my mouth, and makes me want to believe that there's more to it, despite probably knowing better, and feeds me doubt and fear that I have to give a place.

Floris... end of the day, I believe they're correct to not allow any discussion of the lawsuit on their site, and the good reason for that with Commonwealth law is that by allowing such discussion they inadvertently endorse such discussion and content posted, which could then be used against them.

Its common-sense when in any business based lawsuit, DON'T post content online or endorse such posted content, as it CAN be used against you.

Business is different to personal lawsuits... I don't think you running off about it is right either. Xenforo is a business website, not yours, mine or another's personal playground to voice our opinions. It is a business website that we agreed to the terms and conditions that: "We reserve the rights to remove or modify any messages posted for any reason."

 

[Floris]

Floris... end of the day, I believe they're correct to not allow any discussion of the lawsuit on their site, and the good reason for that with Commonwealth law is that by allowing such discussion they inadvertently endorse such discussion and content posted, which could then be used against them.

Its common-sense when in any business based lawsuit, DON'T post content online or endorse such posted content, as it CAN be used against you.

Business is different to personal lawsuits... I don't think you running off about it is right either. Xenforo is a business website, not yours, mine or another's personal playground to voice our opinions. It is a business website that we agreed to the terms and conditions that: "We reserve the rights to remove or modify any messages posted for any reason."

I appreciate your opinion and while I agree with it to an extend, I do think it's a one way street where certain things are said and allowed to be said, while others are not. They're not even saying that THAT is the reason they're closing sites - it's (unless I missed the post) just an assumption that's the case. They can't get around the lawsuit, and customers will have questions. Condensing these into a spot is much better than say having these people be pushed out and spread around the net - it creates quite a bit of doubt with me for example.

 

[anthonyparsons]

I will even add... this is exactly what IB are hoping to achieve, being people such as yourself begin posting negatively about XF business decisions... you're playing right into the IB corner IMHO. Being a customer does not grant us any rights we feel we have to post anything we decide is appropriate upon the xenforo website. We don't have such rights.

 

[anthonyparsons]

Maybe the solution is that xenforo create a licensed customer forum only? That way its there, but hidden from public, thus non-public content is classified legally as private and thus not for public use?

Yes... not a fan of the one way streets approach myself... but I am only a visitor to the community site... even as a licensed customer, that is about the product, not my rights on what I discuss on their website.

No different to this site... you are the gate keeper and I as a visitor must respect your rules here.

 

[Floris]

Yeah, I completely understand. That's the problem. I agree with both sides of the discussion. However, I also believe as a customer that the lawsuit is simply there and this means you run into questions. Pushing those questions out of sight will only lead to speculation. Incorrect speculations.

You're a visitor here, and indeed can post without our rules, but I do believe just because your post is not inline with my first post that it's not up to me to start deleting them. It's when you start trolling for example where I'd consider taking action.

It's hard to explain, because I am not trying to say that I think it is my right that I can discuss whatever I want.

 

[anthonyparsons]

I get it... and I agree totally that its a double edged sword for the xenforo team. I trust they know what they're doing and hopefully things all work out the best for the XF company.

 

[Anthony_imported]

Floris I understand your concern and I respect xenforo's right to manage their site to their entire discretion.

This is not an easy situation for them.

Question for you ...

Had you been in their situation and you know the accusations from IB are with zero merit ...

Would you have counter sued for lost business and defamation ?

 

[Floris]

No, I wouldn't counter sue, I would focus on what is important in my life.

 

[Allan_imported]

I think that Xenforo is in its law, them would not have it (Kier, Mike and Ashley) throw otherwise, and that IB tries simply to crush the possible competition of all the manners.

I trust in the professionalism of Kier, Mike and Ashley, I am persuaded that they broke nobody laws lived has saw their former contracts.

 

[Floris]

I think that Xenforo is in its law, them would not have it (Kier, Mike and Ashley) throw otherwise, and that IB tries simply to crush the possible competition of all the manners.

I trust in the professionalism of Kier, Mike and Ashley, I am persuaded that they broke nobody laws lived has saw their former contracts.

I am also confident they played by the book and that IB is bullying competitors rather than welcome them to the open market.

 

[Mikey]

I think Floris is right. The moderating style over there (not the software, not kier and mike, the community and the staff members) is getting to be all too familiar.

 

[Anthony_imported]

No, I wouldn't counter sue, I would focus on what is important in my life.

Isn't protecting your name and honor important ?

 

[Floris]

Isn't protecting your name and honor important ?

Fighting for defamation of character is rarely won. They can only get an attorney to consider returning the favor (in my opinion) for damages caused directly to them individually or the company, which will also be quite hard to provide evidence for.

Why not use the money to hire a third developer to the team to help with bug fixes and feature expansion, while they focus on their long term roadmap - building a solid future.

 

[Ingenious]

I agree with Floris on this one. In fact I would go further and say the people behind XenForo do at times display almost breathtaking arrogance in the way they run their forum. I was really enthusiastic about the whole thing until I started to see posts deleted, and complete inflexibility in some matters. The one-day sale is a good example, people were wanting to pay in ADVANCE to get the software at that price, myself included, they just closed or deleted any criticism of this.

I find the lawsuit interesting, it's not this that stopped me buying xF now, it's the complete lack of response from Mike and Kier, and the heavy handed censorship in the forum. I appreciate the legal aspects, but the point is none of the people behind XenForo have posted ANYTHING to put my mind at rest that it is safe to buy this product, that my money will be well placed, or even that they deny all the charges - or even what they intend to do. And they wonder why people are starting to worry or gossip??

So what I am left with then is just looking at this with a cold, calculating business head. That is, xF looks to be superb software, I know it's right for me, and subject to the lawsuit concluding and the product leaving beta, I'll buy it. But I don't see the official xF community as being any better now than any other forum's community. I can see a lot of good people getting sucked in and spat out by this.

So this is why I registered and supported this site, I'd like to be able to feel I can post (constructive) criticism of the product or the people behind it and not get stamped on.

 

[Spartan]

but the point is none of the people behind XenForo have posted ANYTHING to put my mind at rest

In their defence anything they say could be used against them and they've probably been advised by their solicitors not to say anything. As far as I'm aware Internet Brands hasn't posted anything else either.

I'll be honest, I haven't seen any post deleting etc. After the beta was released I buggered off into my server to have a play around and when I went back to xenforo.com a couple of days later the place seemed very different and not in a nice way. I check in every few days but it's been a couple of weeks since I posted anything.

 

[anthonyparsons]

The one-day sale is a good example, people were wanting to pay in ADVANCE to get the software at that price, myself included, they just closed or deleted any criticism of this.

No offence... but seriously, do you run a business of any significant kind? If you actually catered this user, that user, this other user... your "sale period" suddenly becomes nothing what you wanted, but now a complete disaster based upon individual user greed.

You said it yourself... you wanted it and are now upset because it didn't go your way. A little childish? I think yes.

VB had a presale for a longer period, and still people complained because they missed out... excuses, excuses, excuses...

As a business you don't control what others do with their money, but you do need to control what you give away, what you reduce in price... the bottom line profit. Sorry... but I would say it is you who is being completely unreasonable about a business conducting their business. My advice would be to grow-up.

A department store has a one day sale... they don't cater you specially because you have something else on that day and wanted to partake and get a bargain. Same thing. Grow-up.

 

[Ingenious]

Anthony, I'm sorry but comments like that really just make me lose any respect for you. This is a good example of XenForo attitude - if someone disagrees with you, you are labelled as "childish".

Yes, I do run a business. Firstly, I would never throttle a sales offer down to one day WHEN there is significant feedback from members WELL IN ADVANCE of this that a lot of people would struggle to try and buy the product in just that day.

Second, I would allow people to buy in ADVANCE to secure the product at the earlier price. First rule of business - take people's money. Cashflow is king. Even better, money in advance of any product which can be sitting in the bank.

It is entirely up to XenForo to decide how they want to market their product and it is entirely up to me to decide whether to buy it or not, or to disagree with their methods and express this. I did even offer to buy the product early in an attempt to be constructive about it.

And: Please don't tell me to grow up again for expressing my opinion, Anthony. I find that insulting.

 

[Cezz]

Guys is there any need to argue? I understand a difference in opinion and expressing it but seriously... calling people names and shouting just isn't needed, Ingenious isn't being Childish but is just frustrated that he didn't get things his way this it is human nature to get frustrated at this at any age.

HOWEVER Ingenious, as Anthony said it was their business decision to run a one day only sale, clearly to drive as much money as they could in that one day... If they run a sales for a day a week or a month is their choice, I find that one day sales to be a lot more profitable as it creates a sense of urgency and will push more people to buy, allowing people to purchase in advance would remove this... using Anthony's logic of a retail store, you wouldn't walk into a store and say I heard you are doing a one day only sale next week but I am away for that day, can I have the sale prices right now instead... That isn't how it works.

 

[Ingenious]

Let's agree to differ.

What I hate to see is constructive opinion stopped in its tracks because it is not shared by the "majority". I hate to see communities where people cannot express valid - but different - views without having posts deleted, locked, being bullied, made to look stupid, flamed, or, as above, being called childish.

This thread really hasn't generated a lot of responses and I can't see how it can be anything but negative going forward, Floris why don't you close it so we can move on and all work together to make XenForo and it's supporting sites welcoming and productive You've got things off your chest Floris, so have I, let's make it water under the bridge

 

[vlada]

Let's agree to differ.

What I hate to see is constructive opinion stopped in its tracks because it is not shared by the "majority". I hate to see communities where people cannot express valid - but different - views without having posts deleted, locked, being bullied, made to look stupid, flamed, or, as above, being called childish.

This thread really hasn't generated a lot of responses and I can't see how it can be anything but negative going forward, Floris why don't you close it so we can move on and all work together to make XenForo and it's supporting sites welcoming and productive You've got things off your chest Floris, so have I, let's make it water under the bridge

I completely agree with your opinion. It is out of sense to be the member of the forums where you can't freely express your opinion. It is clear that such forums is bound to die.

 

[delta]

So what I am left with then is just looking at this with a cold, calculating business head. That is, xF looks to be superb software, I know it's right for me, and subject to the lawsuit concluding and the product leaving beta, I'll buy it.

Hi, I'm new here, but also - shall we say - moved by the topic. I'm a pissed off customer of the "other" software, more or less stumbled into xF, and was thrilled to find an alternative. Just as much accidentally I stumbled into the information about this lawsuit, and contacted the xF team via email, where I got ample information readily. Never at any moment did I have the feeling they were trying to conceal, hide, or belittle the issue.

But...

I'm a small business owner and I need to choose my investments carefully. So this lawsuit is a temporary deal breaker, as I can't afford to loose money paid for software. I also would appreciate an open and up-to-date-discussion of the matter in order to gain trust in both the software and the team, as I'm not willing to repeat my experience with the "other" company.

about deleting/editing/moderating posts:
Well, of course, no doubt, no discussion: the site owner is the "King of the Hill". We simply have to accept that. We may or may not express our dislike of the rules, and eventually it is for us to decide if we return. That's it.

Yet a moderation policy perceived as censorship will not only fail to built up reassurance and trust in both a new software and team, but quite to the contrary create an air of distrust, caution and hesitation.

It is my firm opinion that you have to inform all your customers - future ones included - about any difficulties they might run into with your product well in advance and prior to purchase, willingly and completely.

If this reality now is slowing down your new business: tough ti**y - but it can't be helped.

And the sorry reality is: depending on the outcome of this lawsuit all xF-licenses may become worthless. So I shall wait and see...

 

[Floris]

Thanks everybody for your feedback and input so far, it's interesting to see various points of view.

 

[Mikey]

This seems to have gone the other way right now, the off topic forum has become a marketplace and the moderators aren't deleting it, people are revolting about it etc..

Makes me wonder if they changed their ways? Troll comments seem to be left untouched, etc.. right now it's only the negative ones which are deleted.. and that's only if they cause a commotion..

Sorry for the uber thread bump